Ex-Nazarene
Married for almost 29 years to a wonderful person…hope more to come.
Raised Catholic. Was born again in 1981 and began attending a Nazarene church in 1984. Left the Nazarene Church in 2007 and are now members of a biblically solid Baptist Church.
Have 4 children. Two have graduated from Nazarene universities. Our other two children go to a non-denominational Christian secondary school. We have NO intention of sending them to a Nazarene university when they go to college because the schools have been compromised by liberal philosophies and strange prayer practices that have slowly and quietly come in under the radar.
We believe we are witnessing “the falling away” as foretold in Scripture.
Brother, if you were still in the church I’d respect your view point much more. But you left the church and now seem to want to tear it apart. Christ is not in that.
If you leave and found happiness with the Baptists, be happy and support those you worship with. Your energy is best served that way.
If you are really concerned about where the church of the naz is headed, come back. But don’t judge from the sidelines. That just makes your motivation for this website and all else you are doing very questionable.
Kckd,
I had tried, while in the church, to bring attention to all these concerning topics.
My pastor chuckled at some of the concerns. My DS was annoyed at any criticism for any technique that was used by the church “to get people in the doors”. (He is retired now and has recently told me that he is now concerned about the influences of the emergent church.)
I sent 2 letters to the GS’s office, but never received an acknowledgement of receipt.
I met with the Dept. Head of Theology of one of the universities and that person was deeply into the Catholic contemplative practices and didn’t see a concern for exposing students to mystical practices.
The evangelists I’ve talked to ARE concerned.
I spoke with a university chaplain and he wasn’t aware of what the emergent church was, but knew that there were some “theoloically off” speakers making the rounds at the other universities and he said he would NOT welcome those people to that university’s pulpit. He wanted more information about the emerging church and its implications.
We left after months of trying to be heard, and knowing that we had to find a church that understood what these movements were, and held Scripture and Christ’s diety to a higher standard. We had 2 children entering their teen years and needed to guard what they were being exposed to.
We still are connected with the Nazarene church in that we have a daughter and son-in-law invovled and potential grandchildren. We still have a vested interest in seeing that the leadership in the Nazarene church gets back on course. We’ve invested $150K in two Nazarene universities.
Drawing attention to what has and is taking place within the denomination is not un-Christlike. We are called to warn others when danger is present. There were several in the Bible who sounded warnings to Israel when Israel had strayed. The messengers were hated. Some of their methods of warning were very exteme, such as Ezekiel.
God will send 2 final witnesses in the end times to voice a final warning. People will look at them as “tearing down” what they have built up (the one world religion of peace)and will hate them.
It would be un-Christlike not to warn.
Then warn the Catholics, the presbyterians, the Methodists too. You are singling out one denomination which you are no longer a member of. I’m happy for you that you found a place to worship that suits you.
There are a couple of things though in reading these blogs. Even if many Nazarenes believe that the bible is completely inerrant, the Nazarene Church has never said this. Read what is in the manual carefully. It says “pertains to salvation” when speaking of inerrancy. If you go back and look at the history, at the time Southern Baptists and others were turning toward fundamentalism, some Nazarenes also wanted to align with this idea. But H. Orton Wiley and others thought it was a bad idea and that’s the first time the Church of the Nazarene ever put anything pertaining to scripture inerrancy in the manual. We’ve never been a “scripture is completely inerrant” church.
I think the church has gone in a direction that you aren’t happy with and is too far down the road to turn back. You probably made the right decision to leave. If others feel like you they to will leave. I really don’t see what, if anything your warnings will change. What they might do is cause friction in some local churches that completely split those churches wideopen. Not the Nazarene church as a whole, but a few others.
Do you think Catholics are not going to see heaven or anyone else who is not conservative evangelical in a traditional sense?
kckd,
Catholics, methodists, and presbyterians are being warned as well. They have the same opportunity to read this site.
The emergent influences is no respecter of any denominations. All churches are struggling with their foundations being destroyed by this falling away from faith that is taking place. The friction that is taking place in the local churches is from the redefining of faith through the emergent and church growth strategies and bizarre false fire (new age) prayer practices being introduced as a way to communicate with God.
As far as “inerrant in matters of salvation” is concerned….the WHOLE Bible, from Genesis to Revelation pertains to and reveals Jesus, who is the SAVIOUR, the Alpha and Omega, the Author and Finisher of our faith.
The whole Bible speaks to matters of our salvation.
The Bible states that He is the Lamb that was slain from the very foundation of the world….the very beginning of Scripture speaks to matters of salvation. It speaks of faith and states that without faith it is impossible to please God. We have to have faith in the finished work of Christ alone.
I do not determine who goes to heaven. God has revealed that in Scripture. No one goes to the Father but through the salvation that Jesus provided through His sacrifice on the cross. Jesus told us to repent of our sin and put our faith and trust in Him alone and no other god. (Putting our faith in other gods and the results of that, can be found throughout Scripture….again, these are matters of salvation.)
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one goes to the Father, but through Him. That is where our salvation comes from. It is described as the narrow way that leads to salvation, whereas, the broad way leads to destruction.
Again, the reason that the inerrancy was worded as such in our manual, was to protect against strict fundamentalism. You can go back and look at it.
When Paul says women should be silent in church, I don’t think that pertains to my or anyone else’s salvation. Therefore, I just say Paul was wrong there as I respect women and their right to preach in and pastor churches.
Your site links to many other sights who are discrediting Nazarenes for supporting spiritual practices that date hundreds of years back before there ever was an emergent church. Practices that were done by saints of the church.
Nazarenes and conservative evangelicals did not invent Christianity. It has a long history, some parts shameful. I think if many went back in a time machine to the early church you might be surprised at what you see. I doubt it would look anything like any churches we attend today.
If the Bible is not inerrant in all matters, then we have no foundation. Man is left to pick and choose what he believes. The Bible becomes subjective and God’s power is diminished.
When Paul says women should be silent in the church, we need to understand the context and setting and the confusion that the women in that particular church were causing.
I certainly see where that particular example points to “matters of salvation”. The lesson is submission. Christ submitted to the Father, humbled Himself and submitted to being born incarnate; for the joy set before Him, He submitted to the cross. Therefore, in order to obtain salvation, we need to submit to the finished work of Christ on the cross. Paul told the women of that church to submit to the authority of the church and stop being disruptive while the believers of that church were gathered together. God is not the author of confusion. The concept of submission is vital when it comes to “matters of salvation”.
Just because spiritual practices that date back hundreds of years doesn’t mean they were Biblical. Scripture doesn’t support any of those practices. They are man ordained and created. They are false fire.
Paul was constantly correcting error that was entering the church and he warned that after his departing people would come in and/or rise up from within and begin to teach another gospel and introduce false teachings….so just because piestic spiritual practices were embraced hundreds of years ago doesn’t give them validation.
I am aware of how the Christian church has sinned in the past. Israel sinned too. God has always sent judgement and correction. He is doing the same today. He calls us to repentance and to walk rightly before Him. He has given His Word as a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path.
His Word is our guide, not some subjective experience.
If we cannot trust the entire document, then we are without a stable or solid foundation.
We are merely experiencing the same strategy today that Satan used in the garden and throughout mankind’s history. “Did God really say?” Unfortunately, today many professors in our colleges and seminaries are voicing the same deception….”Did God really say?”
I’m not impressed by man’s word no matter how many degrees he holds. Man will fall from his pride.
I submit to God and His entire Word; for there is written His plan for our salvation.
I’m not wanting to argue any more. It’s a tiresome and pointless exercise.
I do leave you with this. http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/11-15/13-5.htm
While you may not like the person who wrote it or his theology, the quotes are verbatim from H. Orton Wiley. He was the first Nazarene theologian. He was there practically from the Nazarene church’s beginning. And he was the driving force behind what is written in the manual to this day about scriptural inerrancy. If you think that what he believed is what you believe, then ask yourself why he needed to add “as it pertains to salvation”?
Seems like H. Orton Wiley formed his writing in such a way to establish appeasement between his view of fundamentalists and liberals. His view of, and the writer of this article’s view of fundatmentalists is slanted towards a negative opinion…..therefore, anyone who claims that the Scripture is inerrant is a harsh, unloving fundamentalist, according to their opinions.
No matter how people try to rewrite history or slant it to a liberal interpretation…here is a quote from John Wesley.
“If he is a Christian, he betrays his own cause by averring that “all Scripture is not given by inspiration of God, but the writers were sometimes left to themselves, and consequently made some mistakes.” Nay, if there be any mistakes in the Bible there may as well be a thousand. If there be one falsehood in that book, it did not come from the God of the truth.”
From: Internal Evidence of the Christian Religion, a tract by Soame Jenyns. Taken from Wesley’s “Journal”. n.p.
Looks like liberal teachers are well entrenched and are in a unique position to undermine the authority and reliability of all of Scripture.
Hmm, interesting comment by Wesley. That’s pretty clear to me about where he stood. I’ve tried to parse the words and see if there is any wiggle room to “interpret it” a different way, but I can’t see it.
I’m with Wesley on this one.
I’ve been a Nazarene for 35 years and have a similar story to tell. I am leaving for a bible believing church. Will the last bible believing Nazarene please turn out the lights.
I do not agree with you totally on your belief to leave the Nazarene church because you think the church has changed ,have you thought that maybe you have changed or outgrown that certain church , if you look closer you may find that something was done or said to upset you .
I have been a member since 1969 and i do not attend anymore, not out of hatered for the church but i believe God has shown me the changing of religion in America and how it is more about entertainment now than worshipping God.
Like i said i do not attend anymore but i still consider myself a Nazarene and as long as i honor God in everything i do and put God first then it does not matter if i go to a church or not.
I didn’t leave the Nazarene church for any frivolous reasons.
Liberalism has engulfed and is engulfing the church.
I am not the only one who sees it. Several in my former church see it, as well. Some have left, some are trying to counter it and speak up.
You referenced how some churches seem to be more about entertainment than worshipping God.
I agree.
Pragmatism has taken over the church too. “Do what you can to get people in the doors.”
What you win them with….is what you win them to.
ex,
I, too am very concerned about what is happening in the Nazarene Church. I will be in Orlando and am willing to fight for the Truth and Authority of Scripture. I wish you would reconsider our Church. We need you to fight with us.
I just have one comment for kckd: Our church DOES teach the inerrancy of Scripture. That is precisely what “plenary inspiration” means. Because huge numbers of Nazarenes are theologically ignorant and many of our Professors are either equally as ignorant or wholly deceptive this has resulted in large groups of our Pastors not understanding our own teachings.
Join us ex!
Nyk
Dear brother and sister in Christ,
I too was raised Catholic, for the first 26 years of my life. I can understand the reasons for your desire to move on. The Nazarenes were (for the most part) Methodist who were kicked out because of holiness and creeping 19th century liberalism within the Methodist church.
I have seen many people leave one denomination for another, but change you have made maybe a mistake. I have seen Wesleyan/Ameians (sp) join Reformed (Baptist) churches because they think they are the same. They are not. TULIP may not be rigidly held by most Baptist churches nowadays, but the basic doctrines of Baptist vs. Nazarenes are so different, that you and your children will be confused. I’d encourage you to find a sister church, such as Salvation Army, Evangelical Friends, Free Methodists, Churches of Christ in Christian Union.
God be with you to we see each other in heaven.
Thanks Tom, I appreciate your concerns and suggestions.
The Baptist church we attend teach in a free will format.
I suppose it is because the minister’s parents were educated at Olivet Naz University.
It is so refreshing to be in a church that has such a high view of scripture and places importance on equipping and discipling and witnessing. It’s a very missions minded church as well, and is very active in bringing the gospel to the lost and in ministering to their needs.
What I also like about this church is the fact that the family isn’t split up in different directions all the time. The teens are integrated with the adults in 75% of the sermon, teaching, and equipping time. I think it is a healthier format AND it is evident in the maturity level of the teens.
And the other nice feature is…..the youth minister looks and acts like a mature adult and the teens look up to and respect him. He doesn’t have all the silly Facebook or MySpace goofy posts to make him look relevant, and he isn’t stuck in perpetual adolesence.
Evidently ‘high view of scripture’ means ‘no inclination or ability to study it in its original context.’ To read a 2,000 to 5,000 year old text as if it was written yesterday in the United States is the height of ignorance, arrogance and disrespect.
Andy, why woud you assume anyone supporting inerrancy of scripture would be opposed to historical context? By the way, historical context does not mean ‘higher criticism’ as practiced by those who attack the authority of scripture and claim to be merely promoting a critical thought process to their students. For instance, some within our nazarene universities claim that the creation account of Genesis was borrowed by the babylonian account/myth. This is NOT historical context.